On the Mountains of Jassa

Note to our readers:

Yes, we will continue with the Polabian Gods’ description and we have a Pomeranian project coming too BUT in the meantime we have a desire to make a brief detour (more to come later on this too).  A detour that leads us far North – or does it?

Hrubyhruby

Hrubý Jeseník (Tall Jesenik) range – the tower in the background is at the highest point known as Praded (grandfather, old man or old…God) (Interestingly, the range also contains such peaks as Keprnik – so that too is not a German word)

The Saga of Hervor & King Heidrek the Wise is an Icelandic saga.  It comes to us in a variety of manuscripts and versions.

One English translation is Nora Kershaw’s 1921 translation under the title of “The Saga of Hervor and Heithrek” (Hervarar Saga og Heiðreks) (so-called manuscript R).

Another is Christopher Tolkien’s 1960 translation of “The Saga of King Heidrek the Wise” (Saga Heiðreks konúngs end vitra) (so-called manuscript H).

Finally, there is the more recent Peter Tunstall’s 2005 translation titled “The Saga of Hervor & King Heidrek the Wise” which itself is a composite of (1) “The Saga of Hervor and Heithrek” (Hervarar Saga og Heiðreks) and of (2) “The Saga of King Heidrek the Wise” (Saga Heiðreks konúngs end vitra).

There are several interesting things about these texts.

First, to get this out of the way, they contains a bagful of names that have made it to J.R.R. Tolkien’s writings.  Tolkien was into the Old English language and Anglo-Saxon myths in general (e.g., Beowulf translation).  If you ever asked yourself where Balin or Gimli come from or, for that matter Boromir and Faramir, these kinds of sagas are it.  (To a Slav, the -mirs and -ins may sound vaguely Slavic and we will have more to say about that later when we discuss -mir’s, -mer’s, -gast’s and -gost’s).  In any event, his son Christopher enjoyed similar topics and, as noted above, also came up with his own translation of the saga in question here.

(Interestingly, although the Tolkien family is usually described as coming to Britain from Germany, his last name is neither English nor German.  For our best guess, together with the requisite German connection, see the village of Tołkiny (German Tolkynen – both from Old Prussian) deep in former East Prussia and today’s Poland).

Second, the sagas although written down much later (earliest manuscripts from the 13th century) deal with what is, in effect, pre-history.  They speak of the Gothic struggle against the Huns, for example.  It is highly unlikely that their writers were using and “improving” on Ammianus Marcellinus, Jordanes, Procopius and the like.   Consquently, they are a window into a time and place which remained largely untouched and unobserved by the Roman writers who, naturally, were only concerned with the various barbarian tribes once those got too close to the Roman frontiers.

Third, there are several interesting Slavic “connections” or at least “hooks”.  The chronicles talk about Gardarike, a term that may be Russia but also may be Pomerania (which was called that by the Scandinavians by reason of all the grads or gards on its shores – e.g., the various Stargards – this what one might have thought were a purely Slavic term (grad, grod, gorod) itself presents problems – e.g., see As-gard…).  Also, in a number of places, there are references to Harvaða mountains, which have been identified with the Harvati, i.e., the Croats and which – may – be the Carpathians (there were also the residences of the Carpi though (as well as the Avari…)).  Thus, we have:

Norse:

“Hinn mælti: ‘Taktu sverðit undan höfðafjölinni ok fá mér,” en sá tók ok brá ok sneið höfuð af fiskinum, ok þá kvað hann vísu: “Þess galt hún gedda fyr Grafár ósi, er Heiðrekr var veginn und Harvaða fjöllum.”

English (Kershaw):

“And he took it and unsheathed it, and cut off the fish’s head, and then spoke a verse:

This pike at the mouth of the river
Has paid the penalty
For the slaughter inflicted on Heithrek,
‘Neath the Mountains of Harvath”

English (Tunstall):

“And he took it and drew it and cut the head off the fish, and then he chanted a verse:

The price was paid
by the pike at Grave River,
when Heidrek was slain
under Harveth Fells.

Other Interesting Things

But there is another interesting aspect of all of this and it is in the following language:

Old Norse:

“Angantýr kvað:

“Kenndu at Dylgju ok á Dúnheiði, ok á þeim öllum Jassarfjöllum; þar opt Gotar gunni háðu ok fagran sigr frægir vágu.”

Nú reið Gizurr í brott ok þar til, er hann kom í her Húna. Hann reið eigi nær en svá, at hann mátti tala við þá. Þá kallar hann hári röddu ok kvað:

“Felmtr er yðru fylki, feigr er yðarr vísir, gnæfar yðr gunnfáni, gramr er yðr Óðinn.” Ok enn:  “Býð ek yðr at Dylgju ok á Dúnheiði orrostu undir Jassarfjöllum; hræ sé yðr at hái hverjum, ok láti svá Óðinn flein fljúga, sem ek fyrir mæli.””

English (Kershaw): 

“King Angantyr replied:

“Challenge them to battle at Dylgia and on Dunheith, and upon all the heights of Jösur, where the Goths have often won renown by glorious victories!”

Then Gizur rode away until he came to the host of the Huns. He rode just within earshot, and then called loudly, crying:

Your host is panic stricken, And your prince is doomed to fall; Though your banners are waving high in the air, Yet Othin is wroth with you all. Come forth to the Jösur Mountains, On Dylgia and Dunheith come fight; For I make a sure boast, In the heart of your host The javelin of Othin will light!

English (Tunstall):

“Angantyr said:

“Point them to Dylgja and to Dun Heath direct them and mark out all the Mounts of Jass;
there Goths often have given battle and fine victory they, famous, gained.”

Now Gizur rode off till he came to the army of the Huns. He rode no nearer than he needed to talk to them. Then he calls out in a loud voice and said:

“There’s fear on your forces, fey are your generals; the battle-banner above you looms; wrath with you is Odin.” And also: “I offer you at Dylgja and on Dun Heath I offer a fight under the Jassar Fells. A corpse be to you on every horse. May Odin let the javelin fly just as I decree.”

 Commentary on Jassarfjöll [um]:

Tolkien:

“These mountains have not been identified.  It has been suggested that their name is identical with that of the Gesenke, the mountains in norther Moravia, and that both the Norse and German forms of this name are corruptions of Slavonic Jesenik meaning “ash-mountain.”

What are “ash” mountains?  Well, they are not volcanoes (unless we are way off geographically (or chronologically! 🙂 ). They are not even “ashen” mountains.  They are simply mountains covered with ash trees (old English “æsc“).  And therein lies the problem for anyone making a reference to these mountains as such – ash in Germanic does not have a “j”.

Botany intrudes once again

Botany intrudes once again

Why are we even talking about ash trees?  Probably because those who interpreted these words were looking to Ptolemy’s mention of Asciburgius Mountains in his section on Germania (he also mentions a town of Asciburgium (also in Germany).  Ptolemy places these mountains right next to the Sudeten (Sudety).  This makes sense except that the Sudeten of Ptolemy may not be the current Sudeten.  Or are they?

Thus, where (it seems) ash or the like is indicated in the same saga, the author has no problem using the Germanic spelling:

Ok er þeir bræðr koma í Sámsey, sjá þeir, hvar tvau skip liggja í höfn þeiri, er Munarvágr hét. Þau skip hétu askar. Þeir þóttust vita, at Hjálmarr mundi þessi skip eiga ok Oddr inn víðförli, er kallaðr var Örvar-Oddr. Þá brugðu Arngríms synir sverðum ok bitu í skjaldarrendr, ok kom á þá berserksgangr. Þeir gengu þá sex út á hvárn askinn. En þar váru svá góðir drengir innan borðs, at allir tóku sín vápn, ok engi flýði ór sínu rúmi, ok engi mælti æðruorð.

(And when the brothers come to Samsey, they see two ships lying in the cove which is called Munway. Those ships were the kind called ‘ashes’. They thought these ships must belong to Hjalmar and Odd. Then Arngrim’s sons drew their swords and bit on their shield-rims, and the berserk-state came on them. Then six of them went out onto each of the ashes. And there were such good warriors on board there that they all took up their weapons, and no one fled from his post, and no one uttered a word of fear.)

[What are “ash” ships (ashen?) as in the above paragraph, is a separate question – thankfully, it seems so far, not for us].

However, the Slavic word for “ash” is jesion which obviously does have the advantage of having an a “J” in it.  The mountains then would be mountains such as the Hrubý Jeseník (German Hohes Gesenke or Altvatergebirge – see above picture discussing the peak Praded) range or the Nízký Jeseník (German Niederes Gesenke).  These are in the Eastern Sudeten Mountains (in Moravia).

samuel

The 1812 (Polish) Linde definition (thank you for the contribution!)

(That the Slavs sometimes kept or added their “J”s is evident from, e.g., jeden vs. eins.  But see Icelandic giant Thjasse (did someone say “giant”? Like a Riese?  Like Riesengebirge?). They also kept the “D”s.  About jeden (Czech, Pol) odin (Ukr, Rus) and Chris Hemsworth’s father Odin, we will, of course, have a lot more to say later… as too about other numerals, e.g., which Slavic numeral is related to et cetera? 🙂 Too easy, no points for this one!)

That there may have been a battle between Goths and Huns we also learn from Widsith’s “Bard’s Tale” poem:

Wulfhere sohte ic ond Wyrmhere; ful oft þær wig ne alæg, þonne Hræda here ymb Wistlawudu heardum sweordum wergan sceoldon ealdne eþelstol ætlam leodum.

(I visited Wulfhere and Wyrmhere; there battle often raged in the Vistula woods, when the Gothic army with their sharp swords had to defend their ancestral seat against Attila’s host.)

That the Jeseniks are close to the sources of the Vistula is, of course, quite correct:

jesenik

Jesenik on the left, Vistula sources on the right

The trouble is that, according to official chronology, there should have been no Slavs in Moravia at the time the Goth-Hun battle took place (or if there were any at all, they would have, perhaps, come with the Hun army which means that no one would have cared what they named the mountains in their tongue).

And so here we are.

Zeitschrift für Erdkunde, etc (from 1847):

This suggests the “hilly” terrain next to the village Jeser in Pomerania… With all due respect “hilly” terrain seems a bit underwhelming for the site of such a mountain battle (we can believe the Huns, in their short reign, made it to Moravia but Pomerania seems a bit of a stretch).

Afterthought

Note also that some Slavic “nationalist” historians disputed the location of these Jassar mountains in the Sudeten.  The reason seems to be that that would have meant admitting that Goths had been in Poland/Moravia or close enough.  Consequently, they looked for name Jassar further east, as in the Bieszczady or even further around Ossetia where the Gothic kingdom would have ended and where various Sarmatian tribes included the Iazyges and other similar sounding tribes (that some of these tribes may have, in fact, reached Poland did not seem to have bothered them).  For the same reason, the same historians placed Gardarike as far East as possible, leaving all of Poland, Belarus and Ukraine free of their domination (e.g., insisting that Palteskia means Polotsk and not, for example, Pultusk).

palteskia

The famous Hauksbok with Palteskia, Pulina land and Polena (to the east of which is Reidgota land and, thereafter, Hunland)

(BTW, the Hauksbok does not contain the references to Jassarfjöllum since it ends in the middle of Gestumblindi’s riddles leaving what happened later to other manuscripts)

What they did not seem to see, however, was the potential connection of the Sudeten Mountains with a, possible, pre-Germanic stratum (of whatever type but tied to Poles), assuming one were willing to read Jassarfjöllum as a case of (so to speak) singular possessive, as in Jassa’s Mountains (e.g., Stary Ded or Altvater).

(And aren’t these Jesenik mountains close to the R-Iesen Gebirge (Krkonoše or should it be Craco- or Krakonose!?), so maybe these latter ones are the Jassarfjöllum! Ok, so we are getting out of control here – time to stop)

answers

Lucas of Great Kozmin’s eerily ancient answer???

For more see here regarding Polish Gods and here regarding crazy etymologies.

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February 14, 2015

18 thoughts on “On the Mountains of Jassa

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  13. Antoni J. Wręga

    As far as early (circa 2014/2015) note about lack of ‘Germanic’ nameplaces in Poland [this fragment in extenso below]. How about city name of ‘Grudziądz’ (on the bank of Vistula River) and its possible origin from ‘Greutingi’ tribe? Am I wrong?
    ====
    11) Other Place Names – We have a rather extensive etymology of many place names in Germany that clearly date back to the Wendish period. The Germans (or Franks and Saxons really) came into these areas and assimilated the local population. No one questions that. And yet, all of that assimilation notwithstanding, we can easily show where the Obotrite, Veleti and Lutizi tribes lived just by opening up a modern map. One might think, therefore, that a similar process would have taken place in Poland and the Czech/Slovak lands – indeed in Russia. But that is not the case – we are not aware of any place names that have a Germanic etymology and that are dated to the era preceding the Frankish expansion. None.

    If the Germanic tribes (as opposed to bands of roving males and their slavegirls) lived here and left, they left in their entirety and in a major hurry. But then how did the Slavs inherit the various hydronyms that supposedly do not have a Slavic etymology? Were the Venthi the ones hiding in the forests as the Germanics roved the countryside? Then they suddenly came back only to run into Slavs? Someone has to be hiding somewhere for this story to be true it seems.

    Reply
    1. torino Post author

      Grudziądz’ etymology seems relatively simple – the Suavic “gruda” – meaning a frozen clod. Much more pedestrian and realistic. Connecting it with the “Greuthingi” seems rather fanciful.

      As for the second question, I think that the answer is relatively simple. Consider the Franks, they, later with the help of the Saxons, took over most of the Polabian lands really staring with the 600s. And yet by 1750 there were still Suavs living in the Hannover Wendland. Yet no one since at least 1200 spoke of any Suavic polities in the area. The Suavs were, in effect, completely ignored. But they existed. In fact, consider almost any country where there is an elite that sets forth the policies but where the underlying peoples still are the same as before. Absent a total extermination, intruders come and intruders go. Remember too that the Gothic -and that is about the only Teutonic presence attested in the area – was, as admitted by its own tradition, temporary in almost every area where the Goths came to. They were intruders from Scandinavia (like later the Vikings) into continental Europe. Then they moved to Ukraine. Then into the Balkan provinces and so on. Wherever they stayed, their presence was temporary until they eventually disappeared amongst the number of peoples who lived in the locality. It is possible that, if there were any Goths in Poland (which is not a given), they simply got assimilated into a preexisting Suavic substrate even if some of the Goths may have left.

      Further, I am not at all convinced that the hydronymy in places like Poland, Germany, Netherlands or Moravia is not Suavic. It is, however, possible that it went Suavic > Teutonic > Suavic II. And that Suavic II was the product of some Suavs – perhaps those “Veneti” who were pushed East with the Goths – returning back into Suavic lands from the East. That might account for the “Suavic migrations”. It might also suggest that the original Suavic was a bit different than the Suavic of OCS for example. In fact, I think the Slovenes had a theory like that, that is, that they were the original Venethi but that the Serbs and perhaps Croats were late comers – “other Suavs”. While you may question the political motivations of that theory, in theory that is an entirely independent question from the question regarding the theory’s soundness.

      Reply
  14. torino Post author

    @Historian Girl – no cutting and pasting of the same posts you’ve made before please. Also, let me give you a hint: using words such as “dung pile” does not make your argument more convincing. Finally, yes, no one rational is suggesting that every Serb name has something to do with Serbs but there are not as many of them as you may think and their location in the Balkan area is, in fact, more than curious.

    Reply

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