An argument has been made numerous times that Slavs may have originated in the East – in fact in the far east. What evidence is for this usually involves two names mentioned by Ptolemy in his Geography.
We ought to mention up front that all of Ptolemy’s Geography is open to interpretation and has, in fact, been interpreted by cartographers and been interpreted differently. So that you may see one Ptolemy map drawn with certain tribes shown this way and another one – being the “same” Ptolemy map as the first one – showing the same tribes in a slightly (if you’re lucky) different location.
Stavanoi
The first is “Stavanoi” (Σταυανοί). These are mentioned in Book III, chapter 5 entitled “Location of European Sarmatia.” (shown on Ptolemy’s “Eighth Map of Europe”). This is what he says:
“Among those we have named to the east: below the Venedae are the Galindae. the Sudini, and the Stavani [actually, Stavanoi], extending as far as the Alauni…”
Souobenoi/Sovobenoi
The second is “Souobenoi/Sovobenoi” (Σουοβενοι). These people are mentioned in Book VI, chapter 14 entitled “Scythia this side of the Imaus Mountains.” (shown on Ptolemy’s “Seventh Map of Asia”). To be clear, the “Imaus Mountains” are typically perceived to be the Pamir Mountains. In other words, this is way after even the Asiatic Sarmatia (chapter 8). Ptolemy says the following:
“After this bend of the Imaus mountains toward the north. Those who inhabit Scythia toward the north along the Terra Incognita are called Alani-Scythae, Suobeni [actually, Souobenoi/Sovobenoi] and Alanorsi. The part which is below these is held by the Satiani, the Massaei, and the Syebi.”
Others
There are other curious names out there. We have the Suardeni (Book V, chapter 8 – Location of Asiatic Sarmatia – Second Map of Asia). We have the Serbi (same location). On the other hand, we have the town of Serbinum right in Lower Pannonia (Book II, chapter 14). We have Prusias in Ponthus/Bithynia but also Borusci (Borussia is the Latin word for Prussia) in European Sarmatia It’s all very confusing and it is highly unlikely that any one of these, apparently, very small tribes became the Slavs of today.
What all this suggests is perhaps something much more complicated than one tribe getting up and moving in a particular direction to establish a new homeland.
Vast numbers of people may have seen themselves as being part of some tribe or other and migrated in all kinds of directions. The Alani are a perfect example as they appear both in Sarmatia and in Scythia and altogether in numerous places. They may even have been the same people moving about. Or they may have been different Alani as they have different “sub tribal” designations as shown above.
It may thus well be that, e.g., the Suobenoi were Slavs but that in and of itself does not mean that they were the only Slavs out there at the time. For example, were we to know nothing about the location of the Slavs in the middle ages and were we then to discover that the Slovenes lived in Carinthia in the middle ages (at the latest!) we would not be entitled to clam that all Slavs must have lived in Carinthia at that same time.
These Souobenoi may have been a stray Slavic tribe gone rogue (i.e., gone East). On the other hand, as the designation of Sloveni seems to have often been a border designation it may well be that a number of other tribes between these Souobenoi and Europe [?] were already Slavic, with them being a “Grenzvolk.” Or, it may be that these Souobenoi (or Sovobenoi?) were in no way related to the Slavs. Or, maybe they were – but only to some Slavs. The mysteries continue.
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The Stavanoi people were clearly east-Germanic. Their name resembles that of the Istaevones tribal group, of you guessed it, Germania proper people.
It’s like Creeks with Greeks, well although there is a resemblance that doesn’t mean they are the same people. Stavanoi had R1a M458 which is predominantly being found in Slavs
source?
However, both Creek and Greek are exonyms. Greeks call themselves Hellenes and the Creek call themselves Muscovites, erm, Muscogee.
Who knows the origin of the term Stavanoi, but Istaevones could be an endonym as it supposedly stems from the name of a legendary father those tribes shared.
Speaking of Greeks and Hellenes, I was browsing (out of curiosity, I know nothing of linguistics) a dictionary of Etruscan and Graecus is listed there as a name of Etruscan origin. One of their terms for a ruler is ‘lauxum’ (the X here is a Ch, as in Lech. Forms with C, ie. K are also attested). Lauxe/Laucis is an Etruscan equivalent of Lucius. Aisiu/Aislu – Godly, and other various terms related to the nordic Aesir. Aklxis – finesse, sharpness. Alkis – liveliness. (Probably has nothing to do with youth, right?) Alxun/alqum – vigorous, dynamic; epithet of the Dioscuri (maybe it does…) Šecan – mark, secu/secune – signs, marks, seci – to smash, to cut. Seiate/Seiante/Sente/Sentinate – family name; (What do they sow, heh?) “colonist”, sentiunum – colony. Seke – to follow? Šemla – goddess; Semelé. Semna – trace, track, pathway. (Hmm.) Šemthne/šemtni – path, semitarius (etymology of semitarius is also interesting) Šemuthin – to cleft. Servus – obvious, but interestingly of Etruscan origin. Sethrni/Šethrni – male name; who afflicts, hits. (Funny I’d assume the opposite)
Wild flights of fancy, eh? Etruscan isn’t even of IE origin. Who was Graecus? Did he have any šex (Etruscan for daughter, you perverts)? Was anyone following the traces of the colonist Lucius? Could his follower have been a literate warrior? Who was left alone and who was cleft apart? Why do we call the Etruscans Etruscans (Etruscan etera – others) and not Ras(e)na? We might never know.
I have to stop, I might be going crazy.
Easun/Eiasun – Jason. Eluva – Animators, the Dioscuri again. Ermania – heat, hot. (No connection there.) Eznxval – venerable/for veneration. (Xval) Etera/Eterav etc. – others, think Erev Rav that escaped Egypt with the Hebrews. Heasu/Hiasunu – Jason, also intemperate, greedy. Halu/hal – stone, marker? (Halvan – Balvan?) Havasianna, havrenie, havrna – one who percieves. (Like the two birds of Odin? The species which Slavs borrowed a term for from the Germanics?) Havrnas, Havrenias, Harenies – personal name?. Helš – ones own. Heracana/Herecana – personal name. Hercna – dragger. Hercle/Herxle/Herecele – Hercules. Hersine-/hersu – bristling, horrid?. Heiri/herina/heirina – rocky, rugged. (Mountains, enyone?) Mam-/mani-/mar/maru – greatness. (Celtic?) Mama – greatest. Marale – one who smashes, shatters? Pesna/Pestu – batterer, striker (I mean, if you have no stick at hand…) Ratu – calculate, evaluate. (Slovaks do that) Teta – Grandmother also to cover, to protect. Tinas Clenar – Dioscuri again. Tita – female name. Thuta – people. Ur/uru – to turn over, drink libation? (could you turn over soil?) Uši/ušie – to hear (I have ears, yes.) Ušiša – understood, heard, obeyed. Usthe/Uthusthe/Uthuze – Odysseus, Ulysses. Uthutu – separate, far. Uzarale – bereaved -> heirs? (latin viduus – robbed, widowed. Apparently) Venete – of the race, lineage. Vente/venzni/venzi – green/blue. Zimaite/Zimite – (which) sustains. Zusle/zušle/zušleva/zusleve/zušleveš – offering, sacrificial animal; originally “blow by enemy”. Zutaš – settlement. Axaxun – stabbing and cutting god.
Got a bit carried away. Most of these are obviously completely unrelated, even if somehow loosely familiar. The personal names and the Dioscuri do warrant an investigation, though. At the least, Alcis is clearly not Germanic. No signs of foreign superstition, hm?
Something i would like to say about Germanic, is that during Tacitus time he used two different areas to locate the western and eastern part of Europe.
Germania was the location for the area we now know as West- Central Europe, wheareas, Sarmatia was used for Eastern Europe and Asia alike.
However, the people we now call Germans doesn’t necceraly mean they spoke the same tongue but they had similar in a way of clothing etc.
The same applied for Sarmatia, some of them were not homogenous because there were Balts, Slavs, Iranic, Uralic and some uknown tribes. It’s no wonder that the ancient authors didn’t really care what linguistic affilation was between those areas, the only that matters was that they used the influence of the other.
Well, no there is no a single way to consider Istaevones and endonym for Stavanoi that doesn’t have any sense at all.
Istaevones were in modern Denmark wheareas Stavanoi were already present in Sarmatia for a long time. As a linguist myself i can surely say that Stavanoi as a name was picked up by a sourse and then used to denote some tribe in Sarmatia you can see that there is also the name Sthlavanoi- Stavanoi which is also connected in such a manner.
Stavanoi was definetely a small Slavic tribe and not Istaevones who were North Germanic.
In any case You can’t possibly think that that both of them are surely connected with each other.
Example Some people used the terms Venetii, Venedae and even Enetoi some of them might be celtic, illyrian and a mixed tribe, however there is definetely a different reason to call them with a somewhat similar manner, but that doesn’t make them the same people. Stavanoi on the other side were in close proximity with Galindians who were Baltic Both of them inhabited the area known as Dnieper and Pripyat which, has a strong connection with Baltic and Slavic.
Venedae from the other side might be Celtic or Illyrian which explains they were absorbed by Slavic people and they had some lexical borrowings.
Something i would like to say about Germanic, is that during Tacitus time he used two different areas to locate the western and eastern part of Europe.
Germania was the location for the area we now know as West- Central Europe, wheareas, Sarmatia was used for Eastern Europe and Asia alike.
However, the people we now call Germans doesn’t necceraly mean they spoke the same tongue but they had similar in a way of clothing etc.
The same applied for Sarmatia, some of them were not homogenous because there were Balts, Slavs, Iranic, Uralic and some uknown tribes. It’s no wonder that the ancient authors didn’t really care what linguistic affilation was between those areas, the only that matters was that they used the influence of the other.