Recently, we’ve seen some of the dumbest postings from the world of genetic genealogy. Apparently, Polish archaeologists/genealogists were able to assess that the male (Y) haplogroup of the so-called Mazovian Piasts appear to be from haplogroup R1b. So what? Well, the “expectation” was for the more typical (among Slavs) R1a and those people who don’t like the idea of Slavs or don’t want to be Slavs (the two are often connected), got overly excited since in their minds this suggests a German or Celtic origin of the Piast dynasty… Although the Germans in WWII were desperate to find a Scandinavian source for the Piast dynasty (and failed), there is little doubt that the idea (which they did not even seem to contemplate) that the dynasty was Germanic would have tickled their fancy even more.
A number of commentators pointed out that this could be the case of contamination (apparently not) or infidelity (the Piasts examined were from the 16th century – the “original” ones from the 10th) and so forth.
But there is a more fundamental point here. Haplogroup R1b is present in Central and Eastern Europe as well. Of the Poles, somewhere around 12%-16% have R1b. In fact, this is the second most common haplogroup in Poland. It gets better, of the Czechs, some 20%-33% have R1b (and there was a hypothesis about a Moravian “connection” of the Piasts). Even in “eastern” Russia R1b is present in about 6% of the male population (though there it trails not only R1a but also N and I). So the question arises, are these not Slavs? I guess, you’d have to take a very narrow view of what it means to be a Slav to believe that (R1a only and by all means not all of R1a!). (We’ve written about this idiocy before here).
In addition, the truly “Germanic” haplogroup appears to be I1 which is present in a majority of males only in the Scandinavian countries. While R1b is the second most popular Scandinavian haplogroup, on a country by country look even that is not necessarily true since in Norway, the second most common is R1a (after I).
(You might say the Norwegian “subclade” of R1a is different (mostly) than the “Slavic” one but there you get into the ridiculous puritanical view that while anything could be Germanic, only a very narrow subset of things could be Slavic. For example, was the R1b subclade of the Piasts “typical” of Western Europe or of Poland? In the former case, there may be an argument that the Piasts were newcomers from the West but in the latter all of this is a big so-what).
In fact, R1b is also the second most popular haplogroup in Turkey at 16%… The only thing that can be said of R1b with some certainty is that the percentages increase the further West you go. But you have to really go west… While in Germany 44% of men have R1b (between 12%-15% have R1a), the percentages for France and Portugal are 60%, the percentage for Spain is 67% and Ireland sits on the top with 87%.
So, yes, genetic studies can be surprising but the findings of R1a, R1b, N, I or J are hardly surprising.
And this is before you even get to other questions such as:
- suppose you have a hermetically sealed population of R1a and R1b males (plus some females…). Suppose further that the R1a males had more (male) children than R1b males. Over the course of 1,000 years the proportions of R1a and R1b in a given territory could have entirely flipped while the population has remained the “same”;
- what about women? does it matter what mtDna they have!?;
A much simpler way to adjudge who is a Slav is simply to note that if one of your parents is a Slav then so are you.
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Indeed Poles are R1a, R1b, I’s, J’s, G’s, E’s, Q’s, N, H and what nit, possibly in that order plus some two or so C and one B pockets. And that Czechs have even more R1b but less I’s. Nobody rejects the idea that Piast had R1b! I do not have a problem even with other scoops because Wielkopolska and Kujawy had been peopled and visited by not only various mixes for at least 10kyrs. Assuming that people accept their genetic continuity.
I think a different look at differentiating apporoaches is a progress and does not have to represent distancing oneself. How much more explicit one should be not to make an impression of twisting the knowledge instead of straightening it out? But sure it was clear it ain’t that easy. You don’t want me to sound cheesy, do ya.
My point is exactly that too many R1a/Slavic detail gets lost. There is more to it [Slavic World] and the role of long forgotten admixes and regional specifics that today shows in local color should be remembered. AND it should be considered as connectors not deviders inside and between the West and East.
BTW of BTW’s, my take is that Poles do not care for divisions. It is in Poland where nicks like, say, Cygan,
were not pejorative. The opposite is the case, they were peer making; taking the edge off possible conflicts; manly protective. But you need to have that sense for “olewanie” of divisions in a fashion of harmless tho open calling names. Even the Hanys should rather feel recognized by being called that way.
All in all, seemingly polarizing insights are A storm in one’s coffee.
It is funny how you start with R1b Bull and end up a-judging who is Slavic. To let alone that middle part..
You are stretching way off that black and white flag of yours 😉
Just because, to use your words, they can’t tell black from white properly, doesn’t mean black and white don’t exist.
Actually I love your blog!
Sorry if I get across too .. whatever.
😊